Did Gene intentionally jounce the tree limb or was it simply an accident? Use specific evidence from the text to support your answer and make sure to cite the page number. You must say something new. Do not merely repeat what someone else has already said.
80 comments:
I think that it was an accident because it says on page 57 "I just remember looking at your face for a second. Awfully funny expression you had. Very shocked, like you have right now." I don't think that he would have had this facial expression if he had deliberately shook the limb.
It was intentional because the book says on page 59 that Gene realizes that there was never any rivalry between them from Phineas and that it was all from Gene. Than Gene says that Phineas is not the same quality as him and Gene becomes jealous that Phineas doesn't have a jealous streak in him like he does which makes Gene mad.
I have to disgree with tuckerm. I think it was intentional, because on page 62 Gene says " If anyone had been suspicious of me, I might have developed some strength to defend myself." I think if it was an accident he would not already be worried about having to defend himself.
I believe it was both intentional because on page 59 Gene says, "It wasn't my neck, but my understanding that was menaced. He had never been jealous of me for a second. Now I knew that there was and never could have been any rivalry between us. I was not of the same quality as he."
That should suggest that Gene is beginning to feel guilty for being jealous of Finny so much and thus causing Gene to jounce the limb to injure Finny in order to have Finny jealous of Gene for something.
And also, because on page 60 Gene states, " . . . and then my knees bent and I jounced the limb."
If it were accidental I don't see why Knowles would have just stated it as clear as that.
I disagree with tucker because on page 59-60 it says,"Holding firmly to the trunk, I took a step toward him,and then my knees bent and I jounced the limb"..."It was the first clummsy physical action I had ever seen him make. With unthinking sureness I moved out on the limb and jumped into the river, every trace of my fear forgoten." I feel that Gene deliberately shook the limb because if it had been an accident he would have done everything in his power to save his friend.
Also, continuing with what Annae had said, on page 62, Gene says "I might have developed some strength to defend myself. But there was nothing. No one suspected. Phineas must still be too sick, or too noble, to tell them."
That clearly tells the reader that Gene had intentionally jounced the limb because Gene wonders why Phineas had not told anyone.
I think that Gene self conciously wanted to jounce the limb, but it surprised him that he actually did it. On page 52 it says, "Holding firmly to the trunk, I took a step toward him, and then my knees bent and I jounced the limb." But then on page 57 Finny says, "I just remember looking at your face for a second. Awfully funny expression you had. Very shocked..."
I agree with Chloe. I think that it was intentional because if it had been an accident, Gene would have tried to save Finny. On page 52 it says "...I took a step toward him, and then my knees bent and I jounced the limb."
I agree with Anna E, Teddy T, and Chloe G. I believe Gene intentionally jounced the limb to knock Finny off. On page 66 Gene says, "I couldn't accept this sincere drugged apology for having accepted the truth." The truth is the key word because this implies that the truth is that Gene jounced the limb and Finny suspects it but like Teddy T said, "Phineas must still be too sick or too noble to them."
Agreeing what most people have stated, I beleive Gene jounced the limb intentionally. Gene tries to compete with Phineas feeling he is his biggest comptetitor. Having jounced the limb, Gene knows there will be no more competition. Also, he thinks Finny is trying to sabatoge his academic grades. Intentionally making Finny fall made Gene feel superior. Later on in the book (pg.183) Gene said, "It was just some ignorance inside me, some crazy thing inside me." With this, Gene has to have done it purposely. If he did do it accidently, why didn't he grab Finny's hand when Finny reached out?
I agree with Teddy T, Katie P, Anna E,and Chloe G., because on pages 59-60 Knowles states that Gene says "Holding firmly to the trunk , I took a step toward him,then bent my knees and jounced the limb. Also i believe that if Gene would have accidentally jounced it he would not have just casually turned around a jumped into the water. The reason, i believe he made Finny fall is because Gene starts off envious of Finny, then as the story progresses he becomes way more envious. I also believe if it was accidental, Gene would have made some attempt to save his friend.
Going back to what I stated about sabatoge, in the book it says, "Finny had to deliberately set out to wreck my studies." (Pg.45). He felt Finny had tricked him out of his studies. "It was all cold trickery, it was all calculated, it was all enmity." (Pg.45) With this, we know it was all hatred.
I agree with chloe g. I think that Gene purposely jounced the limb causing Phineas to fall because on page 51 it says "None of this mattered now; I listlessly would have agreed to anything". Then on page 52 it says "Holding firmly to the trunk, I took a step towards him, and then my knees bent and I jounced the limb". Listlessly, according to dictionary.com, means "showing little or no interest" or "spiritless". Therefore, it makes me think that Gene had planned on jouncing the limb causing Finny and he didn't care anymore about jumping or his rivalry with Finny.
I think that is was intentional because Gene was so jealous of Finny that he wanted to prove to himself that Finny was human. To Gene Finny was this perfect guy and nothing could ever hurt him. It says on page 52 "It was the first clumsly physical action I had ever seen him make." So Gene wanted to put Finny into a place that he was human to him.
I think it was intentional because the book says on page 62 " If anyone had been suspicous of me, I might have developed some strength to defend myself. But there was nothing. No one suspected. Phineas must still be too sick, or too noble, to tell them." I feel that Gene already has a guilty conscience and if it was an accident, then I don't think he would be worried if anyone was suspicious of him.
I agree with both tuckerm and cassiec. I believe that it was an accident. That he jounced the limb subconciously. That when he reached out to save Finny really meant to save him but at the last minute, something in the back of his mind wanted to prove that Finny had flaws and was just like everyone else. That Finny wasn't so great and that he was only human. So he subconciously jounced the limb to prove that there were flaws in Finny and probably so that he would finally be above Finny.
gmaiMy bad! I didn't finish my last sentence completely. It is supposed to say "Therefore, it makes me think that Gene had planned on jouncing the limb causing Finny to fall and he didn't care anymore about jumping or his rivalry with Finny". Sorry!!
I agree with tuckerm because I don't think he would have a shocked look on his face if he did something intentionally. Even though he tries to tell Finny that he did it purposly, I think it was an accident.
If he did somethig accidently I think he more then a shocked face.
He would have tried to save Finny and maybe fallen himself.
KatarinaA. accident- an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance.
subconscious- existing in the mind but not immediately available to consciousness.
Sources- Merriam-Webster
If something is done subconsciously it wouldn't be called an accident because in technical terms, in a subconscious level, the mind is thinking about the action even if the real person (Gene) doesn't know he's thinking about doing the action. Which would be carelessness from his consciousness but not his subconscious, because the subconscious mind is thinking about it. So the action of jouncing the limb would not be able to be called an accident, speaking in subconscious terms.
I think Gene didn't know what he was doing. The book does say in chapter four that Gene was spiteful and jealous, but I don't believe jealousy gives him a reason to make Finny fall. So I think Gene didn't intentionly jiggle the limb, it just happened.
I have a feeling I'm wrong, so if I am, PLEASE correct me so I can learn more about subconsciousness.
Going with teddyt on this one I believe it was intentional. Like teddyt quoted from page 59, Gene realized that Finny had never been jealous of him but had always been a friend. After Finny had fallen and the instance before he jumped, Gene feels regret for doing this deed showing Gene had meant for this to happen but the reality that Finny had been hurt brought him back with a feeling of remorse for doing such a terrible thing to his true best friend.
teddyt-the only thing I have to say about the subconsciousness thing is that if he had done this whole act subconsciously he never would have thought about it even for a second. On the other hand as katarinaa has said something in the back of Gene's mind prevented him from saving Finny. If he had done this whole act subconciously nothing would have gone off in his mind, he would barely remember anything until Finny's fall brought him back to reality. So I'm going to agree with teddyt on this. It couldn't have been a subconscious act if he had any doubt in his mind.
teddyt-the only thing I have to say about the subconsciousness thing is that if he had done this whole act subconsciously he never would have thought about it even for a second. On the other hand as katarinaa has said something in the back of Gene's mind prevented him from saving Finny. If he had done this whole act subconciously nothing would have gone off in his mind, he would barely remember anything until Finny's fall brought him back to reality. So I'm going to agree with teddyt on this. It couldn't have been a subconscious act if he had any doubt in his mind.
I'm going to have to agree with what the majority of what people have said, that Gene jounced the limb and caused Finny to fall. On page 53, Gene says, "If anyone had been suspicious of me, I might have developed some strength to defend myself." This clearly shows that what he's done was no accident at all.
I agree with katarinaa about Gene trying to prove that Finny actually has flaws. On page 65, when Gene visits Finny in the infirmary, Gene says, "What happeneed there at that tree?...What happened, what happened? How did you fall,how could you fall like that?"
I don't think that a person who would do this on purpose would be as surprised and shocked as as Gene is.
I agree with what Tuckerm said that it was just an accident. But i also believe that he wanted to do it, kinda of like a spur of the moment thing. His mind wanted to do that to Finny, but Gene himself did not want to. I believe this was an involuntary action that Gene did not mean to do.
I have to agree with everyone who has said it was intentional and all the points they have stated. I especially agree with teddyt and his argument with katrinaa. If it was a subconscious action, it would not be an accident. I also agree with tylera. If jouncing the limb was a true accident, Gene would have made some attempt to save Finny.
I have to personally say that if Gene took a step toward Finny, bent his knees, and jounced the limb (pg.52), he had to have some form of a thought process about what he was doing and how he was doing it. Therefore, it seems intentional.
I agree with Katarinaa. I believe it was an accident. Nowhere in the book does Gene talk about hurting Finny, yes he may be jealous but not to the point of hurting him. When the tree is jounced I agree that Gene may be thinking this is his way of being better than Finny but i don't think that was his intention from the beginning.So i say the jouncing was by accident but not saving him may be intentional.
I think it was intentional but it wasn't a premeditated action. Gene purposly jounced the limb because on page 52 Gene specifically describes the situation leading up to Finny falling off the limb. And on page 62, Gene ponders why Finny hasn't told anyone the truth and why no one was blaming him even though he was the only person on the limb along with Finny when he fell. Also, if Gene had unintentionally jounced the limb, it wouldn't have been as difficult to tell Finny the truth.
I believe it was intentional because of Gene's thinking of Finny as a rival, and since many people try to get rid of their rivals, Gene tried to get rid of Finny.
Just follow up what I said earlier and to contradict so of the people who believe that is was an accident. I do realize that he is human, and humans make mistakes, but usually when people are in a dangerous situation they tend to take precautions. Such as being careful. But Gene moved very fast and moved the limb out from under Finny. In which case, it was not an accident. And Teddy the definition of subconscious is : existing or operating in the mind beneath consciousness. Site( Dictionary.com) So you were right.
I also agree with emilyc when she said that Gene wanted to prove to himself and others that Finny was human. Finny isn't perfect, but Gene thinks that he is. He says he'd never seen him make a clumsy physical action until he knocked him out of the tree, and that wasn't even Finny's fault. I definitely believe that it was intentional.
I think it was an accident.
As many people have said on Pg. 62
" If anyone had been suspicious of me, I might have developed some strength to defend myself."
But i think that he is not sure what happened and is doubting himself, Gene didn't do it on purpose. I just think he made himself believe that he meant to harm Finny.
I have to agree with what most people have said about it being intentional. If it was an accident, he wouldn't have felt the guilt that he was feeling. When he and Brinker go into the butt room (pg.90), and he is recounting his "story" to the other guys, he couldn't bring himself to say that he jounced the limb, even if he knew they would take it sarcastically. He says,"I only had to add, 'pushed him out of the tree' and the chain of implausibility would be complete...But I could feel my throat closing on them; I could never say them, never." I also believe if it was accidental, he would have made a point to say sorry. Also going back to what tuckerm said, "I don't think that he would have had this facial expression if he had deliberatly shook the limb." I think he had this look on his face because he couldn't believe that he had actually done that to Finny.
I believe that Gene jounced the limb accidentally, agreeing with Tucker. If it was me I would have most likely been nervous and my legs would have been shaky and could have "accidentally" jounced the limb.
I'm gonna play devil's advocate and go with it was intentional. My reason is that on top of all the other people's comments and evidence, I would like to throw in part of Gene's confession to Finny."My voice sounded quiet and foreign.'I jounced the limb. I caused it.' One more sentence.' I deliberatly jounced the limb so you would fall off.' "-page 62.
I, along with most others, feel as if the incident pertaining to the tree was intentional. Gene, on page 70, admits to Finny, "I deliberately jounced the limb so you would fall off." Page 101 supports this statement when Gene speaks of the evil he sees in everything. He realizes that if there wasn't evil something he wanted, he would put it there himself, "as for example with Phineas". Gene has become so accustomed to being disappointed that when something wonderful is introduced to his life, he does not know how to handle it.
i think that it was accidental. i understand everyone else's point of view, they all make sense, but at the end of the last sentenceon pg.60 the phrase " every trace of my fear forgotten. i think gene was sort of subconciously afraid of finny. he sees him as this perfect, sporatic human being. i'd be afraid of that. so i think that gene did not plan for this to happen, it just did.
i think that it was accidental. i understand everyone else's point of view, they all make sense, but at the end of the last sentenceon pg.60 the phrase " every trace of my fear forgotten. i think gene was sort of subconciously afraid of finny. he sees him as this perfect, sporatic human being. i'd be afraid of that. so i think that gene did not plan for this to happen, it just did.
I agree with natew on the subconscious thing. If Gene had subconsciously jounced the limb, then he wouldn't have thought about it and therefore, he wouldn't have said "...bent knees and I jounced the limb..." (page 52) I think he would have said something more along the lines of just 'and then Finny fell' and I think he would have been more concerned in the condition of Finny and not just have jumped into the river. I also looked up subconscious and found that it meant 'not fully aware', and I believe Gene was fully aware of what was going on.
I believe like almost everyone else that it was intentional.On page 60 Gene says "...and then my knees bent and I jounced the limb."Therefore how could it have been a subconcious act like teddy said if he remembers doing it.I agree with what danielle said about how if it had been an accident Genes line would have been more like "and then finny fell"
I agree with adamp about the confession on p62. The inncident was intentional. Even if Gene hadn't confessed in words, there are numerous events before-hand that foreshadow Gene's destructive capability, such as Gene's constant internal battles with Finny's decisions.
I agree with Kelsey that it was not premeditated. Gene was upset with Finny and wanted to get back at him. On pages 59 and 60 it says "Holding firmly to the trunk, I took a step toward him, and then my knees bent and I jounced the limb." This clearly states that it was intentional, but he was simply taking advantage of the moment, not caring out a plan.
I think it was intentional. On page 60 it says "...and then my knees bent and i jounced the limb." I think that it was clearly stated in this way to put emphasis on the fact that he did it intentionally. Otherwise it would not have been stated so bluntly.
I strongly agree with treyn. I feel as if it was just a spur of the moment. I know that i have had anger build up and it just comes out without warning. The same way he jounced the limb without warning.
(59-60)
"I took a step toward him, and then my knees bent and i jounced the limb."
It seems that it happened so fast his mind didn't work quick enough to tell his body no. And if he had purposely jounced the limb he wouldn't feel as much guilt because he told his body to do it. If Gene really wanted to hurt Finny intentionally he might as well have just told him to watch his back and hurt him while he was sleeping.
I agree with tuckerm,Cassiec,and Katarinaa because on page 57 the book says "I just remember looking at your face for a second. Awfully funny expression you had. Very shocked, like you have right now." I believe that something over came Gene. He wasnt in his right mind. I dont believe Gene could do something like that to Finny. It was an accident. Something in his mind just triggered and set him off. So he wiggled the limb and Finny fell. All this happened so quickly that he was in shock. I believe that if he would have thought it through or waited for a second he wouldnt have moved the limb and none of this would have happened.
I disagree with nikkim baecause as she said Gene had a shocked expression on his face. Well, I think Gene could have had that look if he had purposely caused Finny to fall also. Gene would naturally be shocked that he really did just cause his friend to fall even if he meant to.
i agree with natew on this idea that it had to do with being subconcious at the time. I feel also agreeing with katarina that Gene could have been blinded by his jealousy, and want to be better than Finny. I feel that Gene did want to help him, but that it was as if his jealousy and need to be better than Finny blinded him to where he wasnt paying attention to what he was doing.
I disagree with what most of the people said about Gene jouncing the limb being intentional. On page 191 Finny says, “I do, I think I can believe that. I’ve gotten awfully mad sometimes and almost forgotten what I was doing. I think I believe you, I think I can believe that. Then that was it. Something just seized you. It wasn’t anything you really felt against me, it wasn’t some kind of hate you’ve felt all along. It wasn’t anything personal.”
Miles, that just says Finny believes that the event wasn't intentional. And you must recall that previously Gene and Finny had an argument about what would happen if Gene was head of the class. Finny said Gene had a fat chance and that deeply angered Gene. Could that event been more fuel to the fire that's already set a blaze in Gene's conscious? I'll cite this page tomorrow, I don't have the novel with me. Sorry everyone! but it's in the chapter with the fall. I think 2-3 pages back. :]
TeryN, jounce- to move in an up-and-down manner. source- Merriam-Webster. I don't think involuntary movement would include shaking a tree limb up and down. And if it did, wouldn't the involuntary movement only be subtle? Unless Gene has a case of tourette syndrome or something Knowles did not inform us about. And remember, when jouncing the limb, both Finny and Gene would have be on it. And shaking a 5'8.5" boy from a tree limb can't be done from involuntary movement.
I agree with what everyone has said about Gene intentionally hurting Phineas. (pg.70) Gene is in Boston talking to Phineas and states," I deliberately jounced the limb so you would fall." Phineas of course disagrees and states, " of course you didn't." Gene fights back and says," Yes I did. I did." and on page 189,when Brinker causes the big argument Gene says to Phineas I tried to tell you before, I tried to tell you in Boston that time-" Phineas agrees with Gene that he remembers Gene saying that. So Gene did jounce Phineas off the tree. And if Gene didn't jounce Phineas off the tree why would go all the way to Boston and say he did?
(I accidentally posted under my mother's name above.)
Going along with what cassie c said, I believe that Gene shook the limb sub-conciously, however did not realize what impact the fall would have toward Finny. I believe this to be so because on page 59 it states, "Holding firmly to the trunk, I took a step toward him, and then my knees bent and I jounced the limb." Then on page 65 it says, "But I don't see why you should look so personally shocked. You look like it happened to you or something." This shows that Gene was not thinking clearly at the time and did not know the impact of his mistake. Also throughout the rest of the novel he struggles with the guilt he has to carry with him because of Finny not wanting to hear the truth. At the end of this book Gene is honestly sorry for his actions and I don't believe he would have been so distraght over the fall if he had done it with full intentions.
t1barnes is my mother's email account, this is kayla h. Sorry if any confusion!
I disagree with tucker. I believe that it was soley intentional. Throughout the book he talks about how he envies Finny, and wishes he could be like him. He constantly tries to out-do Finny.
Im going to have to disagree with teddyt becouse I believe it was not intentional and i also believe that it is possible to "jounce" a person from a limb. I believe this becouse thoughout the book Gene is shown as a kinda clumsy person and I believe that this shows that he would have been fully capable of jouncing a limb enough to knock a boy off. I also belive this becouse on page 57 Knowles states "I just remember looking at your face for a second. Awfully funny expression you had. Very shocked, like you have right now." I believe this proofes my point becouse at this moment he has realised the horror of what his accident has caused. he wouldnt have had thatfacial expression if he had done it intentionaly.
Gene obviously envies Finny because he makes comments like "He of course saw nothing the slightest bit intimidating about [the tree]". His envy clearly leads to the intentional yet subconcious act of jouncing the limb thus resulting in Finny's injury and ultimately death.
Bryce, but to jounce is to move shake an object in an up and down manner. Even if Gene was that clumsy, would he have really accidentally shaken that tree limb in an UP and DOWN manner?
Teddy i dont think Knowles ment that he literaly it shook in a up and down manner I believe Knowles ment as a broad statement that ment the limb was moved in a accidentle way.
if knowles wanted the reader to learn about redemption from causing Finny to fall then why didnt Knowles just say he pushed him off the limb?
if knowles wanted the reader to learn about redemption from causing Finny to fall then why didnt Knowles just say he pushed him off the limb?
Don't you remember when Mcaffry said writers don't just write the words of their novels for no reason? And this section can go both ways but I'm taking it word for word, jouncing is jouncing. It is in no way pushing. Gene didn't push Finny off the tree because they were too far apart. Well, not far enough to be able to save Finny, but if Gene had actually pushed Finny from the tree, would not the spectators have noticed?
Wow, excuse the "for no reason". I meant, writers use specific words in the novels to portray an image for the reader to visualize.
"It was the first clumsy physical action i had ever seen him make"(52). The "him" in this sentence is referring to Finny and how his fall was not planned and a surprise to all. Previously it has never stated him being clumsy maybe goofy but not clumsy. Despite Gene jouncing the limb this seems more of an accident than intentional.
Possibly clumsy physical action from being caught off guard while on the tree limb? We know Finny has uncanny balance but even he couldn't help but to fall or lose balance when jounced on a tree limb. P.S, who studied for vocab?
I agree with what many others have said before me, that Gene's action was intentional. Ever since Gene had met Finny, he has always coveted him and thought they were in some sort of competition. Gene believe's that Finny tries to bring him down, like in his school works. Now that they are on the tree, he takes the chance to bring Finny down at sports(something he's good at) by jouncing the limb on the tree, thus ending the competition in Gene's mind.
im not saying he pushed him from the tree im saying the exact opposite actualy. I was being sarcastic, im just saying that mabye when knowles said "jounce" he didnt mean the actualy dictionary definition im saying he ment it as a broad word that could be taken as an acidently slip that could have caused enough force to make hime fall.
Yea, so i blew out my knee tonight during our football game, so i cant really think clearly. I agree with nearly everyone here. I believe that Gene puched Finny off the tree on purpose. Gene had a ton of jealousy built up in him, and Gene and Finny had had a competetion going on between them nearly the whole semester. I believe Gene pushed Finny out of the tree to resolve the competition between them.
Sorry if i coppied people Mrs. Mcaffry. i can't really concentrate right now. My knee is killing me and pain pills aren't helping, so it is possible i copied somebody. Im sorry.
Yea, so i blew out my knee tonight during our football game, so i cant really think clearly. I agree with nearly everyone here. I believe that Gene puched Finny off the tree on purpose. Gene had a ton of jealousy built up in him, and Gene and Finny had had a competetion going on between them nearly the whole semester. I believe Gene pushed Finny out of the tree to resolve the competition between them.
Sorry if i coppied people Mrs. Mcaffry. i can't really concentrate right now. My knee is killing me and pain pills aren't helping, so it is possible i copied somebody. Im sorry.
But, I'm fairly, if not positively sure, dictionaries were available when this novel was written. And if Knowles knew what reticent meant, then why not jounce? I don't see why he'd put in a word in the novel if he did not know the definition. Shake the tree limb. Jounce the tree limb. Same meaning, and you can't venture too far from the actual text and change the word's meaning.
James, I think it'll be OK but the book only has so many facts and evidence. Surely this discussion has listed them all!
What im saying is that mabye the connoation of the word is differnt in the sense.For instance, if a writer is writing a story about a race and there are two runners racing in it and the last sentence in the story is "and then the runner jumped over the finish line". The writer doesnt nessacerly mean the denotation of the word which is to leap in a verticle motion. When infact the runner is not leaping in a verticle motion he is actualy in a horizontal motion but just becouse the dictionary version says he should be jumping up and down thats not what the auther ment. The auther ment he was leaping over the line, but if u say jump it gets the point across even though the denotation is against it.
Why would a writer do that? Should he/she not be professional enough to find the correct synonyms to fill in the gap that is called descriptive writing? I see what you're saying, but that would be more of an amateur's work. Maybe in the Kite Runner, Hassan never ran for the blue kite, perhaps he jogged for it, and the writer(I don't remember) just felt like writing that Hassan ran when really he jogged.
I think it was intetional because Gene had so much jealousy bottled inside of him. He also wanted to be Finny and maybe he was thinking he could be Finny if he killed or hurt him bad enough.There is also a big rivalry between them. to Finny it is fun but to Gene it is totally serious. and later in the story he said he,"delibrately jounced the limb" so it was obviously intetional
He didn’t plan it, it was premeditated. But in the moment, it was still intentional.
wasn’t*
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